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What Trinitarians don't want you to know. After rereading this book I have on Christian history I finally saw how 'falling away' could have occurred, or what some think is the apostacy that arrives first before the antichrist comes. II Timothy chapter 3 begins with this reality that there will be a departure from faith. I Timothy in the beginning of chapter 4 talks about these latter times as well. As Jesus said the love of many shall wax cold. The big lie starts when some say the Trinity was believed by early Christians. It wasn't. Even a 100 years after the day of Pentecosts, most in the Eastern Roman Empire didn't really believe the Trinity and the several gothic tribes who ruled significant areas in the Western former Western Roman Empire believed in Arianism. So in the 1st century and 2nd century most Roman Christians didn't believe the Trinity. It was only after Constantine rose to power that the Trinity was forced on everyone. But some already think I neglected some earlier church fathers who seemed to believe the Trinity. Yes, there was a creed that was earlier believed that sounds like the Trinity but it's clear as crystal that Constantine and the catholic bishops modified the Trinity so they could get rid of Arians. There were different forms of Arianism which the Trinitarians will never tell you either. The Trinitarians won't tell you either that Constantine supported only the catholics and not other numerous Christians who were not catholic. This is clear favoritism by the state to make unity in the name of murder of the opposition by modifying ealier church creeds to just expand their hate for something different. So it's the truth that the Trinity that is believed by Protestants is a Catholic doctrine. And we know many catholic doctrines sound biblical but always have some particular error overlooked especially by the former Romans themselves. That means that there was some truth in the belief that Jesus was subordinate to the Father. The problem is that people don't understand who God is. God had no beginning as every Trinitarians will boldly state so why are they believing a doctrine that gives legitimacy to the conception, "Mother of God". In fact the "Mother of God" theory applied to Mary because she had Jesus was invented at the same time the Trinity was. There were gnostics in the empire that denied Jesus's humanity as well. Trinitarians will hide that fact as well and the fact that Justinian, a Trinitarian emperor said that since Jesus was God, that Christ didn't suffer and the food he ate magically disappeared. So there is a right meaning to saying Jesus is God and it's not the Trinitarian way because it denies the 100 percent humanity of Christ. Again, Peter said, Christ died leaving us an example that we should follow his steps. If one says Jesus is both man and God they deny all the sayings of Jesus that indicate the uniqueness of the who is subordinate to the Father. Constantine, the Trinitarian was just hormonal trying to unify the empire and defeat the Arians who were saying in part some real truths. And if you are not convinced of the Trinitarian lies look how they address Jesus's own saying that he doesn't know the time of the coming. Trinitarians sound like a making a lie to cover up another lie when they try to make up every story to why Jesus doesn't know the time of the coming, except God. Yes I believe Jesus is God but not the way Trinitarians do, but the importance of who Jesus is doesn't even need a meeting or some gathering in Nicaea to make some creed. Peter said a good enough creed on who Jesus is in Matthew 16:16. Jesus said the Father revealed it to Peter so why should there be a further discussion that it's more important knowing that Jesus is the of God than knowing Christ is God. Isaiah 9:6 as well doesn't say Jesus is God. It only says 'his name shalled be called...', but doesn't say he was fully God. God can't die so that should be enough logic so that if you don't see the importance as Jesus the of God, then you will be in sin. Jesus's being is the of God, but the Spirit of Jesus is God. Does that sound like a 100 percent God, and 100 percent man? Jesus is Creator and the I AM but he was given that title by God so when we say Jesus is God we should mean that he represents God, and not literally God. God wants Jesus to be God-like so that means divinity and godhood was given to Christ. When we honor Christ, we honor God. This is all spiritually understood. That meaning is fully in what the of God means. |
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12/1/2009 11:15 pm |
Ok get this tho...the Word, Jesus, always existed and was with God, and was God... Jo.1:1 right? He was not created. He lowered Himself to save us. He raised Himself scripture says in one place, and in another says God raised Him. There are so many scriptures saying Jesus is God that would have to be explained away. Hebrews ch 1 God calls Jesus "O God", and it can't be little g god, that's used only for false gods, and is used once in psalms for judges of Israel. I used to be J.W. but when I started studying the bible and not their twisted version, I realised they were wrong. So I studied about this alot. It is the core of knowing Jesus. And I want to know Him and who He is. I've found it is difficult to understand tho, and I still dig in scripture to understand.   "Love is Patient..."
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12/2/2009 3:02 am |
Ladylight, The Word is God and was on earth. Since God is a Spirit this means 'God with us'. That's what the name Jesus means. Throughout the book of John if someone reads through the chapters Jesus mentions many key words that relate the relationship between him and the Father. The whole idea is that Jesus represents the Word because Christ said he did not come on his own. The Word taught Jesus what to say. Again, Christ said the Father was always with him and He (Father) did the works. So yes in many ways Jesus is the Word. The Trinity doesn't seem to distinguish this relationship in the spiritual sense, but only in an identity one. I use to always say Jesus is God but never really understood it. It is only understood when one sees the power of Christ and the truth that the Father sent the Son. The oneness and godhood that makes Christ is because of the closeness the Father has with the Son. In other words Jesus can't be God without the Father who was with him. Just saying Christ is fully man and fully God doesn't seem to realize the unity of Father and Son. Unless it is stated.
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12/2/2009 7:07 am |
Job:9: 30: If I wash myself with snow water, and make my hands never so clean; 31: Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me. 32: For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. 33: Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Job is realizing his sins, and he is longing to be able to plead his case with God but then he also realizes he cant because God IS God and he is just a man. Job sees that he needs a 'daysman' who is BOTH God AND man, a Mediator who can 'lay his hand upon us both' Guess who that is? 1Tm:2:5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus Jesus was fully God AND became fully man BOTH. and guess what else? 4: Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. God wants ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth -not just a 'chosen few', and Jesus gave himself a 'ransom for ALL'. Jn:14:15: If ye love me, keep my commandments.
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12/2/2009 7:19 am |
I forgot to say, Now TAKE NOTE that Job, he was ALREADY A MAN. So why did he need ANOTHER MAN for a Mediator if 'JUST A MAN' was enough to begin with? What you need to realize IS THIS. WHY THE NEED FOR A MAN If you go and read Romans 8:3,4 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Notice that Jesus had to come, completely fulfill the Law 'in the flesh' and by doing that He successfully 'CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH'. Meaning we now have NO EXCUSE FOR SIN, because we can lay hold of HIS FAITH and by that same faith overcome sin, as a man/woman. That is why in various places in the New Testament you will notice it talks about 'The Faith OF JESUS'. Like in Revelation 14:6-12, God's people are 'they that keep the Commandments of God and have the faith OF JESUS'. That is how they are keeping the Commandments of God is BY the Faith OF JESUS. WHY THE NEED FOR GOD As you have already seen, there had to be a 'GOD' and not just a man for a Mediator between God and man. This Mediator and Sacrifice had to be perfect in every way, because God is perfect in every way. And there are just MULITUDES of Scripture telling us that God was indeed GOD. Not only that but He was FULLY MAN as well. Its a MYSTERY. The Mystery of godliness. Jn:14:15: If ye love me, keep my commandments.
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12/2/2009 12:12 pm |
Job:9: 30: If I wash myself with snow water, and make my hands never so clean; 31: Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me. 32: For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. 33: Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Job is realizing his sins, and he is longing to be able to plead his case with God but then he also realizes he cant because God IS God and he is just a man. Job sees that he needs a 'daysman' who is BOTH God AND man, a Mediator who can 'lay his hand upon us both' Guess who that is? 1Tm:2:5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus Jesus was fully God AND became fully man BOTH. and guess what else? 4: Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. God wants ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth -not just a 'chosen few', and Jesus gave himself a 'ransom for ALL'. If you do read this oftentimes in the old testament God sends an angel to the prophets. I thought well if Jesus was around in the old testament then why doesn't God send Jesus instead of Gabriel or Michael. The answer is that God is the Word that speaks to the angels as well. I don't think God can be understand in are limited human reasoning. If the Word is fully God then if the Word is revealed to us through Jesus then in a way Jesus was in the beginning, except Paul said it was a mystery. Then we come across the verse that says great is the mystery of godliness. Paul then seems to relate godliness to God. God was manifested in flesh, seen of angels, preached, and then taken up in glory. It's all God to me if you know what I mean. But to take it literally would discard the saving truth that we can be like Christ. Christ died leaving us an example that we should follow his steps. Yes we can do the things Christ did. We can be righteous through Christ. We can stop sinning and know God. Jesus clarifies who he is when hearing the accusation that he made himself God. Though in a sense he is God. Jesus says in John 10:36 to those accusing him, "Say ye of him whom the Father hath santified, and sent into the world, Thou blaphemist; because I said, I am the Son of God. According to thousands of people I'm not saved since I think it's more important to say Jesus is the Son of God.
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12/2/2009 4:10 pm |
I did agree with the "Mother of God" problem. I'm not Catholic, so I don't even think that way in my understanding of the triune God I know. He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And as to whether Jesus is fully God as well as fully human, there are so many scriptures showing He is just that. Here is one, and a comment on the one I already gave. 1Pe 1:11 states that the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets as they wrote Holy Scripture. Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit, as we know other scriptures saythat the Holy Spirit inspired scripture. And the word "beginning" means "source" many times. That is another study I have done and still am doing ... Also Jo. 1:1 Amplified bible says .."and the Word was God Himself", as the greek renders the meaning to God Himself. Jesus on earth was a perfect human being without sin, as Adam was. He left His Glory when He came here, and was glorified with the same Glory when He ascended. We will be like that too in the resurrection I believe. Glorified bodies like Jesus. But we will not be God, like Jesus is. God the Son. But we will be perfect humans as God planned. And the sanctification starts when we are saved.  Thanks for the post, I enjoy talking about this. We may not believe the same, but talking about it is good I believe. R and T "Love is Patient..."
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12/2/2009 4:18 pm |
Also can God be the Father without the Son? Got me thinking on that one. And of course the Son didn't come on His own. He is in the Father, and the Holy Spirit is God. All three were there at Jesus' baptism. Three persons one God. I don't think it will be understood till heaven. Jesus is in us by the Holy Spirit. He was born a man by the Holy Spirit. Amazing... "Love is Patient..."
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12/2/2009 4:56 pm |
And yet "the spirit of Christ" is NOT JESUS- and it is NOT A BEING. The "SPIRIT OF MESSIAHSHIP"- IE- the command to SAVE in God's "employment" is nothing "special or exclusive" to Jesus. Moses was a messiah. David was a king AND a messiah. OTHERS including the office of prophet held messiahship as well. Our sense of "Christ" and our recognition of that word has been changed into something NEVER INTENDED that makes it literally EASY to force us to SIN by clinging desperately to all manner of false doctrines and fanciful thinking when dealing with "messiah". It's the reason Christ will be calling nearly EVERYONE "workers of iniquity"--- they lie about Him constantly. He IS NOT GOD- and to CALL HIM GOD is iniquity. Easy to figger out. Satan got ya'll waaaaaaaay back when. Sad ain't it?
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12/2/2009 8:45 pm |
Ladylight, I was told several times throughout the years that I wasn't saved since I didn't believe the Trinity, but I thought I believed enough as Peter did when he answered Jesus to who he is. I meant can Jesus be God without the Father. These things were talked about by Jesus and how he is second in rank, but I won't make it a big deal aslong as you know somehow Jesus is God. I'm not saying God died either. I can see why Gordy will say he is not God but there are two distinct persons and just saying Jesus is the Son of God gives Christ divinity and godhood making him God. The point I'm making is that if you do believe he is God then would it somehow stop anyone from trying to be like Christ. Because Christ came to make many like him if you see the whole purpose of the gospel. The first Adam caused many be sinners, but Christ would make many righteous.
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12/2/2009 10:35 pm |
fun,ok, I c now. I believe that Jesus paid the price as is written in scripture. And by the Holy Spirit we are regenerated, washed by the Word and sanctified. Justified period. Done. Then Sanctified period, and also an ongoing thing. Complete glorification will happen we we are changed in the twinkling of an eye! Can't wait! We are righteous in Him. And we abide in Him and His Word. He says the Father and He will come in and sup with us if we abide. And we will love one another. And walk in the Spirit and not the flesh. This is what I believe. My salvation is assured because of Jesus, but God is our Father, and he chastens us. So I really want to be like Jesus. I also hate the feeling of disobeying Him. Grieving His Spirit. Jesus being fully human did put Him as subordinate. He lowered Himself. From what? From equality with the Father. Scripture says, He did not see it as something to be "grasped" or held on to, but took on being human. Hebrews talks about how He is our High Priest forever, knowing what we go through because He became human. But He was fully God at the same time. Thanks for the discussion on this. I want to know the Word correctly. I think I do on the core doctrines, but am growing too. I don't think I'll be changed in my understanding of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit tho, because the Holy Spirit showed me who Jesus is in the Word. This happened over a short period of time in '96. It was a miracle. Thank you for being like you have been discussing it with me on your blog. I appreciate that. "Love is Patient..."
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12/2/2009 10:49 pm |
And Yes I understood what you meant...can Jesus be God without the Father....It made me think can God be Father without the Son? He is God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We're made in His image. We are 3 in 1 also. Mind (soul), flesh, and spirit. The Church always had wheat and tares. Jesus said they would not be pulled apart till He came back. God has always kept doctrine pure I believe. I can see His hand throughout the history of the Church and it's constant growth, corruption, reformation, etc... God kept His Word pure, and He also made sure His truth was preserved. This is what I got from studying Church History. "Love is Patient..."
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I've already summarized part of the above in many many blogs and comments. Here's one discussing Jesus Son of Man and Son of God (plus links) : Clickable link: --> God did not become a man Jesus is the Son of the living God I don't intend to take up again what's already been said, unless something NEW is worth the time and the effort! PS: Besides: "Mary, Mother of God" can hardly mean that "God has a mother", LOL!, and moreover it has NOTHING to do with the "Doctrine of the Trinity"!
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